Question of the Week - 8/25/08

There has begun a revolution in the Church of the Western world as many Christians are starting to find new (but ancient) expressions of Christianity, while those sticking to the old paradigm are challenging and resisting the new.  There seem to be two camps when it comes to the method which Christians should use to find and promote these new expressions of Church.

1.  Transitional - We should work within the Institutional Church to carefully bring people along, expose them to truth and slowly change their mindsets.  This comes with the understanding that it may take decades to accomplish and the realization that God is calling us to be patient with His people as He transitions them.  They claim that the revolutional method creates sects and division that is uncharacteristic of the Kingdom of God, a sort of "our church is better than your church" motto, and therefore not productive.  While believing that the Institutional Church structure is not right, they say that we should not "throw the baby out with the bathwater."

2.  Revolutional - We are simply called to do what's right, to live in the Kingdom of God and to manifest God's ways in our lives.  This comes with the understanding that most people are not going to come along at first, but the realization that God is calling us to be His people and fulfill His purpose with whoever may come along.  This camp believes that the transitional method very rarely works and that there's no reason to wait decades to see if it will when we can do it right now.  There's no reason to compromise God's ways and structure, but we should set an example for our brothers and sisters while loving them.  If we do what's right, the Lord will produce fruit that others will be naturally attracted to.

So, what would Jesus do?

Comments

[Dan B]

What makes anybody think that making a clean start is so clean? People are people and we all have junk that comes with us. We all have selfishness and pride that tends to destroy the church. Therefore I think it is foolish or naive to think that people are not going to end up doing all the religious things they did before,even after the "revolution" occurs. A real revolution occurs when the Holy Spirit works in the hearts of men to the point that Jesus is high and lifted up in all of life. When people see his glory they are changed and will begin to follow Him in more and more radical measures. Until then it is all just fleshly enterprise in a house just as well as in a church. We dont need a clean start , we need an outpouring of the Spirit so that we can see Jesus.

[Ian]

The Lord says it best "...I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent..." Rev. 3:1-3

Its pretty clear what the Lord would want..."Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent."

[Aaron]

I agree that it starts in the heart of each individual. We need to ask in our hearts this question: do we know Jesus Christ, and are we loving Him and others right now, today, at this very moment. If there is any doubt, then we need to humble ourselves, repent and seek His face.
"God, baptize us in Your love."
Let's pray, fast (Acts 13-14), and cultivate the fruits of the Spirit in community, in real relationships, not in tradition.
"God, break our meaningless traditions, which we put more trust in than in loving others in real time, or in loving You. Help us Lord."
Let's all, right now in our generation, be full of God's life and love like there may not be a tomorrow, to lay down our lives and pick up our cross and not live for self glory or power, but to see the resurrected Christ live and be powerful through us. In this pursuit of Christ, His kingdom and love, our traditions will never stand. God is fluid, His ways are new every morning!!!

[Aaron]

I heard a story about 2 Chinese young ladies (like teenagers) who just came to know Christ. They left Hong Kong where they lived and went to some nearby island to share Christ with the people. They returned a few months later to get more supplies (Bibles, etc.) and the people in Hong Kong were shocked to hear what had happened. These young ladies, just new in their own walk with God, had planted a ton of churches (I forget the actual number)...and the smallest had like 200 people and the biggest had over a thousand. The people asked these girls "How did you do that?" The 2 girls said it was very simple, "we just asked the Holy Spirit what to do, and then when He told us we did it. Then we would ask again, and then we would do that. Over and over."
I love it! Simple! Fluid!

[C Pridham]

I don't really think that there is a "right" way. I believe that each has to follow the leading of the internal voice of the Lord. In saying that I do realize that Jesus did not come to change or restore the religion of Judaism nor do I believe that a follower of Christ is able to restore or reform the Christian religion.

[Ross Rohde]

Might I suggest that these two options may not be antithetical? Perhaps it is a matter of calling.

Jesus called me to be a revolutionary in this issue. Yet, I have friends who are called to be pastors in the old man made system. I don't doubt their calling or that it is from Jesus.

When Israel asked for a human king it made Samuel angry. God told him they are not rejecting you, they are rejecting me. Nevertheless, give them what they want. Later God asked Samuel to anoint David as king of Israel. Should David of told God no, the system is corrupt? Or, should he have obeyed?

[Erica Lynn Miron]

I kind of agree with the second one, Revolutional. I mean for some people it will take a long time if ever to realize that God is the savior. All we have to do is our job and God will do his to bring his people to him.

[David]

I don't mean to take the middle ground, but I think that it is important that we have people on both sides of the equation. We need the Revolutionaries to set up the goal and to model the NT church to the world and we need the Transitionals to help find those within the institutional church who desire change. Also, with some remaining in the institutional church, we are able to explain why some others are leaving it. People tend to view something as a cult if they don't understand the truth behind it. So I say both. Revolutionaries for the offense and the Transitionals for the defense. I personally still meet with an (almost lol) institutional church, but as I become closer friends with some of the people, I have begun to talk to many of them about the revolution. I've also handed out "Pagan Christianity?" to several people now. But the moment I find an organic expression of Christ, I will be thrilled! God-bless!

[lisa wentzel]

jesus definately kept to his focus, he moved on.
he did not compete and talk down people who didnt get it.
as a whole group we can do it together. some must lead the front or else how would movement ever happen and then we would die waiting for later adopters, others have the place to bridge the gap.
there are examples of this all over, even in something as simple as a family.

[Josh H.]

Just having this type of conversation leads me to believe Jesus would be disappointed. Jesus spent a lot of time trying to get people to see that it's not about what happens on the outside, but what is going on in the hearts of the people.
Jesus never left us with a prescription of "how to do church". Instead, He told the disciples to wait on the Holy Spirit. And when the Spirit came upon them they move out in power. Without the Holy Spirit guiding our lives, any revolution is still man made, traditional or otherwise.

[Heather Wax]

Well.....
Let's talk reality here for a second. I've been involved in the revolutionary camp for about 16 years, and as much as I would want to tell people to go out and just do it, the reality is that I've seen people try over and over again to start something and just make a real big mess. (Including myself.)

So, with that as a backdrop, the reality is that all of us see in part and know in part. Just when you think you know what kind of revolution needs to be started, you find out that there are missing peices to your revelation, that other parts of the body have - and the Lord very well might send you back into the traditional church for a season to learn from the rest of the body there what you haven't grasped yet.

On the other hand, there does come a time when people are honestly equipped and ready to start a revolution. On this level, I think the scriptural principle "to the Jew first" stands true. What do I mean by that? In the first century, the Jews were the ones who the gospel was primarily meant for. There was a certain necessity then for revolutionaries, in this case, believers in Jesus, to start out trying to win the Jews before they could shake the dust from their feet and go to the Gentiles. I think the same is still true: in a sense, it is encumbant upon us to take what belongs to the people of God to where the people generally are FIRST - ie, to try within the traditional church first to convince them they need a change of wineskins. If a transition succeeds there, then great! I know many, many churches that belong to the revolutionary movement that have their roots in something much more traditional, but somewhere along the lines, God did do some sort of change.

On the other hand, this is rare. Usually the traditional churches will entirely reject what the revolutionaries have to offer. This might be the fault of a bunch of pompous revolutionaries that are arrogant and trying to get themselves rejected, but it just as well might be because the believers in that church are more in love with their traditions than with what the Lord wants to do.... In that case, having gone "to the Jew first" with their revolutionary ideas, one is free to shake the dust from their feet and go to those who might be more ready to hear it...those who have already left the churches long ago, or those who aren't even saved yet.

You can't put new wine in old wineskins, or old wine in new wineskins. Jesus talked about needing to preserve both. That's something I really don't get.... but anyway, some old wineskins apparently can be convinced to become new and some can't... and so depending on their response, determines what you do next.

[Derick Dickens]

If it is a teaching of Scripture derived from Scripture alone that is being violated that meets as a mandated practice, you change immediately. Otherwise, patience should exist.

[Howie Cruthers]

This is a great question, and one that we are grappling with on an ongoing basis. I guess your answer will be colored by your experience - at least somewhat.

My experience is this: A year and a half ago I was a salaried pastor in a cell church. We had been asking ourselves for years "why aren't we seeing explosive, qualitative, and numerical growth?" We (the pastoral team/elders) blamed it on a lack of fervor, a lack of following the pattern correctly, a lack of commitment on the part of the membership, and a host of other things.

I began reading books about organic Christianity and church, and was blown away by the fact that it had been right there in the NT all along and I had missed it. I began to share with the other two leaders. One of them was right on board with me, the other was skeptical. We started to teach and preach and try to practice more open, spontaneous, and participatory forms of gathering. In the end, most of the people left us, including one of the pastors. The other guy and I stepped out of any formal or positional role of leadership (including the salary), and we ended up with about 30 committed believers. We have been meeting organically (as much as we know how) for about six months, and our church bears no resemblance whatsoever to what it was a year ago. Some of the words that would describe what we now have include "freedom, joy, passion, openness, genuine fellowship, desire to be together, fun" and many others. Most of all, we are learning to be focused on Christ, and not on "doing" a meeting.

So, in my experience, I desperately wanted our whole church to embrace the new wineskin, but most of them would have none of it. We were careful to not be arrogant and offensive, but in the end, it didn't matter. Sadly, we no longer have relationships with most of these people. I personally do not believe a slow transition of an entire (institutional) church is possible. I think it is better to leave quietly and begin anew. In my experience, the Kingdom is advancing one believer at a time, or one family at a time, and that's where most of the effort should be focused. I would encourage people to find a few believers and live life together. Get away from the scheduled, organized, ritual of religion. That is the beginning of organic church life. Don't worry about whether or not you're "doing it right." Let the DNA that is already built into the Body be developed by the Holy Spirit. And seek help from people who are living like this. There are certainly gifted people available to help plant new organic churches or help existing ones.

[Heather Wax]

Howie,
I am sooo excited to read about what is going on in your neck of the woods...sheesh, can I come visit?

I hope my chances of visiting won't be dampened if I politely disagree with you on one thing that you said - about "leaving quietly and beginning anew." I think in your case, if I'm reading it correctly, that that is the last thing that could be accurately applied to your situation. After all, you caused an earthquake, and 30 poor little sheep were snatched away from your former church's net tithe.... That wasn't no quiet little disappearing act, no - that WAS a grand exodus!

Anyway, I agree with you that there is no such thing as a slow transition of a church. There's either a quick transition (as happened for 30 of your church members) in response to truth or there is a digging in of the heals and no transition at all (as happened to the rest of your old church.)

Anyway, I hope my earlier comments didn't sound like I was saying you need to know how to do it "right" when starting a new church. It's more a matter of making sure the Lord has prepared you and that the timing is His. I've seen plenty of housechurches go down BECAUSE of the gifted people they invited in, when they were doing fine on their own beforehand, and plenty that could have used some help that couldn't even agree on where to get it before they self-destructed. I'm just saying that sometimes this is much harder than reading a book and asking someone to come help you figure it out. And sometimes, as I hope for your group, it really is just a move of God and all the pieces fall together just right to build and sustain a glorious expression of the bride!

I'm thinking at any rate that I might want to actually change some of what I said in my last posting. Maybe the real answer to this question of the week is, "Whatever works!" If you are positioned and able to bring about transition in a cell group, or other institutional church environment, then go for it, and if you are surrounded by bowling buddies outside the institutional church and have a heart and vision for winning them to Christ and teaching them to be the church, then go for it there... whatever works...

I dunno, your comments?
Heather

[Derek R. Ianelli-Smith]

If one reads Viola's recent work (PC, RC) along with visiting a cold, pharisacal building on Sunday, they have 2 choices, slowly over time become transformed into a pharisee like everyone else or die inside. Because so few have leadership gift and are called to plant something (organic church, house church, simple church, emerging church... whatever but do something church)... the excuse is to leave. Personally I couldn't sit there on sunday anymore but I also could not be a nice lemming and go to work everyday without getting involved in the game... The amazing thing is that for some strange reason, there seems to be some other ridiculous people out there who feel like I do, so we worship and do life together... it just happened... not through 'lobbing hand grenades' at the institutional church, but taking action and being incarnational right where we are at...

Thanks for the opportunity
Oasis...where relationships are a mess worth making
http://oasisgc.wordpress.com

The revolutional approach is a great approach. If everyone on Earth just did what was right and loved each other the way Christ loved the Church, life would be perfect. But we live in a fallen world and we live in tainted bodies.
To me, a bad picture is being painted about the traditional approach. Why will this approach take decades to accomplish? Isn't it the responsibility of the people to make a difference in their own lives? Why are we blaming the church for this lack of influence when really it's a simple problem of people not applying the Word of God?
Why not both instances? Why can't we practice both practices? Let's stop getting so technical with which "approach" is better and get to know Christ a little bit better each day. Whether you go to "church" on Sunday or meet together to watch sports on Sunday, it doesn't really matter if you're not fellow shipping with Jesus.

[Don Davis]

Hi Everyone,
There is a simple biblical rule - Love. Speak the truth in love. Be motivated by love. But you cannot love an institution, you can only love people. The way I deal with this problem is to remain in the lives of the people I love that are still blinded by Institutional Church practice. Then model what I know by doing simple church.

You can change people by your influence, example and love - but you will never change an institution. Those with a vestige interest in institution will defend it in order to protect their salaries and/or the position of power.

That is part of the problem in that if we change the institution (if that is even possible) you still have an institution that is hierarchal and clergy led. There needs to be organization - but not in the traditional sense. It needs to be organic and flat, so that it is not centered around dogma or personality - but Jesus. I feel we must separate from the institution, but never our brothers and sister in Christ.

There is no need to go to war with our brothers. But we need to be harbingers of truth and be part of a revolution of love and being the royal priesthood that Christ has made us in Him. some will ignore us, some will, be angered by us, some may even promote our destruction. Our posture must be one of love and "forgiving them for they know not what they do." When we come against the business of church, we are promoting the elimination of the idols in the marketplace. The battle lines may be drawn, but we must not succumb to the tactics of the flesh.

This can be a lonely place, but if we network together and build relationships with one another this lonely place will soon fill up with servants of the Lord.

God Bless,
Don - http://dondavis.wordpress.com/

[Tammy Grist]

As far as what would Jesus do - He said "I only do what I see My Father doing." Let God choose whether He is going to be transitional or revolutionary. Jesus always treated people with dignity and was motivated by love, but He was ultimately a revolutionary.

[Elvin Fang]

Coming back to the original question. ;) I suspect the proponents for the transitional method, though understand that the Institutional Church (IC) structure is not all that perfect (and I don't think groups that meet outside the IC would consider their groups as perfect either), may still intend to preserve the structure to a certain degree. If that's the case, then it's more about reforming the IC structure and aligning it to the biblical principles. In this aspect, the proponents of the revolutional method correctly understand that the IC structure, no matter how much one refines it, it can never meet the mark precisely because the IC structure itself is one of the hindrances.

So I guess that the proponents of the transitional method have to be very clear that they are not in the IC to facilitate the improvement of structure (to a more biblical one), but facilitating the change in the way the saints in the IC look at the issue and ultimately abandoning the IC structure. It is or should be about influencing people within that structure, rather than making further improvement to the structure so as to sustain it. With this ultimate objective in mind, it is then not a transitional vs revolutional issue, but a question on how both methods can be complementary to each other in the longer term.

Though I would also question the practical aspects of the transitional method (i.e. what to do with the building and worship services, how to re-organise during the transitional period etc), especially after looking at the cell churches. They appear to be a likely candidate for the transitional model, yet there seem to be more status quo than change in my opinion. I feel it's also important for the transitional method facilitator to be part of an organic community at the same time when facilitating the change in the IC, if possible.

On the other hand, one of the challenges ahead for the revolutional method really lies in not compromising on "the" biblical form of church structure, yet avoiding elitism, sectarianism, being exclusive and trying to maintain contacts with the IC (even attending their services occasionally) & the saints in IC. It started to sound impossible? But by being an exemplary model, His people will naturally be drawn and inclined to it.

As for the argument against the revolutional method being divisive, it is not really an unique problem that the revolutional method alone faced. But it is in fact a common problem for all forms of church structure, especially the institutional ones where stakes are generally higher. Having said that, organic forms of churches are not spared from this particular thorn either. As long as there is a group of people, there will always be a potential problem of being divided, either physically or in spirit. Or depending on how you see it, it could well be an opportunity for growth. It is, however, not a valid argument against the revolutionary method.

So, what would Jesus do? I think He is more than willing to work within and without the IC structure, among His people so He would obtain His beautiful Bride at the end of that day. Though we should not adopt a pragmatic approach, sometimes, we are just too stuck in our mindset of "the" method or model. Thank God, He is bigger than that. ;)

[Marcy Ellis]

Jesus said "Come unto Me, all you who labor, and are heavy ladden, and I will give you rest. My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

What I MUST do, and what each individual Believer MUST do, is FOLLOW Jesus in the way He is leading you. And do not try to put your vision on other people. Division comes of one's own choosing.

I believe that IF you believe God's shown you that you are to hang around in the IC, to share the insight and revelation He's given you with those who are receptive; cool! Do that. But do not try to etch it in stone as if this is the only way God's going to do things. This is YOUR calling. If I try to follow you, your way, then I will find myself burdened, and unable to rest in the Lord.

Likewise, those who do not feel they are to remain within the IC, should not draw a line of division between themselves and those who do stay within that structure. This is not compromise. It is being gracious and allowing Holy Spirit to do what only he can do. There are no Jr. holy spirits...we all need to remember that. :)

I do not feel called back into the IC to "reach out" to those who are still there. But, I don't shun my brothers and sisters for not seeing things the way I do. The only reason I see the Truth is because Holy Spirit opened my eyes to see. So, I live and move and have my being IN HIM right where I am. This is the life God's called me to, and I have His peace and rest here.

Be careful not to put YOUR "burden" on others. We are not all called to walk identical walks. And be SURE that you are living the life GOD has called you to live. Maybe there should be more self-examination going on, just you and Holy Spirit. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. We are the Body of Christ. Let's encourage one another in following after Him, developing our individual relationships w/God and one another.