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September 21, 2008

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Dan B

Mike,
That is an interesting blog that certaining has a pretty good analysis on the state of many churches in America, however I would take him to task on a few things....I think the assumption that the Islamic organization Al Quaida is "flat" and not heirarchial is false. There is a chain and there is pecking orders that are handed down. Now if you are speaking of the myriad of Islamic terrorists groups that exist, yes as a whole it is more flat and pretty disorganized. To be honest the Islamic movement to subdue the earth to Allah would be entirely more effective if they had a more organized structure. In the Church, structure is not bad so long as it produces life....likewise, structure is good among militant Islamic groups so long as it produces more effective results of terrorism.
Also, I wonder where he is coming from on statement #4. I wonder what his view on the importance of knowing is in the Christian life, if any? Is he being critical of Christians making things more complex when they are simple of is he railing on any kind of deeply involved study. If it is the latter than he needs to think about what he did in preparation for writing a book. If he is critical of an overemphasis on knowing and not doing then he lines up with Jesus (Matt 7:26,27) However,if it is the case that you or he, or anyone else is critical on an emphasis on knowledge(doctrine/theology)he certainly does not line up with Jesus, "sanctify them in truth,your word is truth" Jn 17:17; or with the Apostle Paul where 14 times in Romans and 1 Corinthians he asks the question 'do you not know?' insinuating that what you know effects how you live. Doctrine certainly can be dead, but with the power of the Holy Spirit it brings life.
I like many things about organic church movement, but there are two specific gripes that I have with it....the kind of disdain and suspision of any kind of leadership, and the notion that doctrine is not important (which is really ridiculous when you think about it because everything that comes out of anybody's mouth that has to do with God is doctrine.) God is not honored or glorified by being worshipped without truth. We can all hold hands and say we are just being led by Jesus or the Spirit, but that means nothing unless you get specific about what God is like and what He has done and will do in the future. Doctrine is glorifying to God so long as it is attached to heart.
I guess thats enough ranting for now...Im just so tired of the assault on theology and doctrine.

2nd man united

Dan B-

“The movement would be more effective if they had a more organized structure.”

I'd be interested to learn in what ways they would be more effective, since the author of this post is claiming the opposite.

Let's clarify that no one is claiming that structure is bad. You can't escape some kind of structure. But, we are saying that - Unhealthy (worldly) structure = death, Healthy (Godly) structure = life, and “structure determines function.”

As far as your two gripes with the organic church movement: If a church has either of those characteristics that you mentioned, they would then fail to be classified as an organic church. An organic church doesn't have disdain for leadership, it has disdain for an unhealthy (worldly) leadership structure brought about and practiced in unhealthy (worldly) ways. It looks to follow the Biblical model of developing and practicing leadership. It also does not have a notion that doctrine is not important. It has a notion that study and doctrine should not consume our Christian life, but support it and motivate it toward action.

I think the author of the post is implying that many Christians get caught up in a Christian life that does nothing but study Christianity and don't use that knowledge to effectively advance the Kingdom through action. They study, study, study and look up 10 years later and their church is the same; same size, same faces, no Kingdom advancement. I've been there. I used to go to church and listen to sermons, go to classes, etc. on Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, et al. That was the extent of my Christian life, instead of the Body of Christ being my Christian life. It's still a work in progress for me.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Learning together,

Mike

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